Off The Field continued

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
There was also a report that the ECB will soon charge 12 former Yorkshire players/coaches with breaking their rules, the 12 to include Gary Ballance, Andrew Gale, Tim Bresnan and Matthew Hoggard.

 

Karma

Well-known member
Thanks Hawke for these updates , it's very important for members and supporters to have an understanding of what is happening behind the scenes and these articles help in confirming suspicions. Although the club has been tardy in communicating with the public, supporters and especially members ( but asked them to vote at the AGM) I appreciate there are legal reasons why some of this but not all is so.

There is, apart from the need to settle with all employees/ex-employees, the club needs to look at it's communications , publications and media activities .There's no point in telling individuals to 'move on' when there is some 'catching up' to do .

Then there is action that the ECB will be taking against individuals and the club. In this latter area the financial position of the club is already pretty dire to say the least . My concern and fear is that this translates to 'on-field' activity and success or otherwise . 'Off field' I've noticed changes in activities and services and I don't mean improvements. The staff at YCCC I've always found professional and very friendly and helpful. I just hope there will not be changes here but I fear there already has been and with more to come.
 

Newby

Well-known member
Thanks, I think, BBC also have the unfair dismissal story but nothing on the ECB leak. I would normally say if it's only in the Mail I don't believe it but we all know it's in there and the ECB are waiting until it suits them to release their findings.
 

byased

Active member
Seems very odd that Yorkshire have admitted wrongdoing so easily. So, what is their defence?, and who pays what will be very substantial damages?.
Andrew Gale appears to have won his case, with just the amount involved to be agreed. He had spent his entire career with the club, and was shown no loyalty at all. I don't think he was a good coach, and should have been moved on a year or two ago , but he certainly did not deserve to be treated in this manner. His career is now blighted. Others to follow no doubt. were ECB behind it all? Puts the club in a very poor light.
 

Karma

Well-known member
Seems very odd that Yorkshire have admitted wrongdoing so easily. So, what is their defence?, and who pays what will be very substantial damages?.
Andrew Gale appears to have won his case, with just the amount involved to be agreed. He had spent his entire career with the club, and was shown no loyalty at all. I don't think he was a good coach, and should have been moved on a year or two ago , but he certainly did not deserve to be treated in this manner. His career is now blighted. Others to follow no doubt. were ECB behind it all? Puts the club in a very poor light.
I agree wholeheartedly , I liked him as a player. he must have been doing a lot right for the club to win two CC's under his guidance and captaincy. He wasn't my favourite coach and in spite of accusations made against him he didn't deserve to be treated in such a heavy handed, shabby and vindictive way to affect him personally and his future professionals standing and career.

I'm afraid YCCC will be paying this , I think it might be part of the £1.9mill Special item in the last Report and Accounts . dire financial position already , lots more to pay out as well .There's a train strike when the Headingley Test match is on so even less income.

Money apart ,I also feel for Mr Rafiq and especially for the others who were sacked without been given a reason , many of whom never worked with or even knew Mr Rafiq.

Two wrongs do not make a right
 

tbsteve

Active member
I'm happy they are getting the reward. Times reported they were initially offered just £2,000 but after 2 weeks of evidence YCCC admitting they were in the wrong and pay-out will be substantial. However, their reputations have been ruined. Where someone has been hurt through no fault of their own, I thought it was a basic principle of law to make restitution so that as far as possible, they are returned to their previous state. Maybe some announcement from their club accepting their error would be a start. I hope the others will make a similar claim soon, having seen the success of the first group.

I empathise with Rafiq for the family tragedy, but his racism allegations aren't exactly proven. We still have his own words when coming back to the club about how great Gale had been, and have not heard both sides of the story. The only way to completely clear the air and start over is to let both sides have their say in public (public because one side has been very public and vocab in making allegations so in fairness the other side need a chance to give an account in a forum that is not stacked against them so not the DCMS committee).

As for Patel - anyone directly responsible for £1.5 million in payoffs should resign. It's added at least 10% to the club debt because he wanted to come in and make a point about a 'clean slate'. There were policies in place that clearly weren't followed. Any legal advice given to him regarding the mass sacking should be made public, at least to the members who were asked to rubber stamp the budget!
 

Newby

Well-known member
Having re read it I notice he managed to get the Ashwell Prince incident and the y*d thing in just to demonstrate what a total monster he wants to paint Gale as being.

Obviously he couldn't find any old school friends to say they once saw him stand on a black spider on the way home from primary school or he would have shoved that in too.
 

tbsteve

Active member
Well, that's Dobell for you. I tried to comment using my normal email address and got an error message (I commented once before criticising his biased reporting, wonder if I'm blacklisted?) Then tried again on my work email address and went straight through to be reviewed. Not sure they'll allow but here's what I commented:

Since you're bringing up historical incidents all the way back to 2010, maybe for balance we could also mention Rafiq's own misdemeanours? For example, the anti-Semitic text messages he sent in 2011, and recently apologised for. Or the suggestive messages he sent to an under-aged girl, after allegedly trying to buy her alcohol on the plane to Dubai in 2015.

Today people have different cultural understanding and awareness compared to Gale in 2010 and Rafiq himself in 2011.
 

Donnylad

Well-known member
I thought the reports of massive pay offs were a bit exaggerated.

Standard mainstream journo ignorance of, and lazy reluctance to find out about, the workings of Tribunals.
My guess is that the Tribunal will only deal with the process (admittedly faulty) in the light of the view that YCCC's management - i.e Lord Patel - took.
As the article in the Cricketer says
" .... employer has the option to offer a warning, training, change management or issue termination proceedings." That is what the law says an employer can do.
Immediate dismissal is, in extreme cases, the appropriate course of action.

This ain't over yet Colleagues ... and the 'judicial mediation' is a way for claimant and employer to put down a marker about possible levels of settlement. - that's all. It is not an evidential process.
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
Indeed the admittance, apparently to save everyone’s time, and perhaps money, is procedure only.
Perhaps LP realised the risk, and has been said, factored it in. So then he could approach future sponsors and the ECB and all ethnic minorities with the Clean Slate. Maybe he believes it is also financially sensible in the long term.
Of course if you believe AzR lock stock and barrel without feeling it necessary to properly investigate, then that is the logic.
Indeed could be messy if individuals are claiming to be racially discriminated against over the sackings.
Yes more to come. Yes much more.
 

Newby

Well-known member
Nice to see the Northeast stand has got some advertising back. C&C, which is a brand I've seen before at Old Trafford I think. I don't think they sell anything I need but it makes the place look better.

I like to think I'm not influenced by the advertising I see at sportsgrounds but I must admit when we had our bathroom done I ordered the stuff from a firm who sponsored the Rhinos. I also switched to First Utility (now swallowed up by Shell Energy) several years ago because they sponsored Rugby league.

Sort of proves that whatever I like to think, I'm just a mug like anybody else. It was a good deal though!
 

Karma

Well-known member
Nice to see the Northeast stand has got some advertising back. C&C, which is a brand I've seen before at Old Trafford I think. I don't think they sell anything I need but it makes the place look better.

I like to think I'm not influenced by the advertising I see at sportsgrounds but I must admit when we had our bathroom done I ordered the stuff from a firm who sponsored the Rhinos. I also switched to First Utility (now swallowed up by Shell Energy) several years ago because they sponsored Rugby league.

Sort of proves that whatever I like to think, I'm just a mug like anybody else. It was a good deal though!
What ever you do don't organise that new car based on advertising around the Clean Slate Stadium ( or Arena?) The Seat Unique is not a car (as I thought) but a 'hospitality' booking site for Headingley (also saw their advertising at Trent Bridge)

It's amazing how often my wife and I both say to other after watching a tv 'advert'
" What was that about" ? or " What were they selling"? Did you know that most banks don't actually have anything to do with money , no they are here to help you with your IT problems or help you get a job. And gambling sites major on social interactions ie people actually meeting having a few laughs , coffee, instead of wasting money by going on-line when you are on your own and giving it to multi billion £ companies. You couldn't make it up, no that's the job for experts , apparently.
 
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Donnylad

Well-known member
What ever you do don't organise that new car based on advertising around the Clean Slate Stadium ( or Arena?) The Seat Unique is not a car (as I thought) but a 'hospitality' booking site for Headingley (also saw their advertising at Trent Bridge)

It's amazing how often my wife and I both say to other after watching a tv 'advert'
" What was that about" ? or " What were they selling"? Did you know that most banks don't actually have anything to do with money , no they are here to help you with your IT problems or help you get a job. And gambling sites major on social interactions ie people actually meeting having a few laughs , coffee, instead of wasting money by going on-line when you are on your own and giving it to multi billion £ companies. You couldn't make it up, no that's the job for experts , apparently.
....legal, decent, honest and truthfull .... I can think of a number of TV adverts that fail at least one of those precepts.
 

Newby

Well-known member
Club and several players have now been formerly charged by the ECB after their investigation. No hearings expected until September/October.
 

Karma

Well-known member
I wonder if Mr. Rafiq will also be charged eg for his historical racist tweet? Now that would be rough justice after all he's been through. I think we all know the answer as he's not a current player.
 

tbsteve

Active member
Why would it be rough justice? I'd call that justice! We still haven't heard both sides, and from what I have read, whilst sympathetic to Rafiq's personal circumstances, I'm inclined to side with the accused. Things said in jest can always be reinterpreted years later when looking for an outlet for pain - it doesn't equal justice. Those charged are also former players so Rafiq definitely should be included! And his behaviour towards the young girl on the plane should also be investigated by the relevant authorities.
 

Karma

Well-known member
Why would it be rough justice? I'd call that justice! We still haven't heard both sides, and from what I have read, whilst sympathetic to Rafiq's personal circumstances, I'm inclined to side with the accused. Things said in jest can always be reinterpreted years later when looking for an outlet for pain - it doesn't equal justice. Those charged are also former players so Rafiq definitely should be included! And his behaviour towards the young girl on the plane should also be investigated by the relevant authorities.
Well tbsteve , strangely enough my wife and I were talking exactly about the Vaughn incident in the car coming back from Trent Bridge and we're in basic agreement with what you are saying . A message spoken with one meaning can be interpreted or' heard' with a completely different meaning. If the police ask 3 witnesses to describe an incident (years later as in Rafiq's case) they would probably get three different versions unless there's collusion . Would they remember what they actually saw/heard or what having spoken to another witness ,what they thought they saw/heard . I think there's also the example about an Army planning an attack . The message radiod was ' Send reinforcements we're going to advance' but it was 'heard' as ' Send 3 and Fourpence , we're going to a dance'

Now I've never spoken to Vaughn and he's not everyone's cup of tea . However I can imagine him making a a friendly, humorous larger than life comment to the group being' I'm the ex-England captain' but not being racist. One or more of them might have heard it (One certainly didn't , Shazad I think) Another might have said , did you hear what he said? No and repeated it (or what he thought he heard) etc etc .Vaughn's adamant he said nothing racist .Why would I not believe him?

As far as rough justice is concerned , it works two ways (possibly the wrong way against Vaughn as it's difficult to prove what you didn't say) . In the case of Rafiq I am being somewhat ironic as it's not a level playing field , especially when you are allowed (invited?) to give evidence under Parliamentary Privilege , you can say whatever you like without any outside cross-examination . And nobody can sue you for defamation. In essence it's a bit of a Kangaroo court but a legal one . Boris Johnson was invited to repeat his 'Jimmy Saville allegations against Starmer out side Parliament but has declined .

Although I'm not a lawyer it's never stopped me giving legal advice. the rough justice is that I don't think the ECB (or it's disciplinary committee) has the power to take action against a fish and chip shop owner in Barnsley concerning historical racist tweets for which he has made a very public apology and has been perceived to be remorseful. Nor do they have power to take action for his £000 of gambling debts that were paid off( but not by him) , nor for drinking late into the night in a Scarborough Pub when he was playing for Yorkshire the next day , nor for trying to ply an underage girl with alcohol on a plane , nor tweets to the same girl. Nor for him being a bit of a porker at times ( it's not bullying to tell a professional athlete that they should lose some weight)

The Parliamentary Select Committee and the ECB have made up their minds about Rafiq . They're now going after YCCC and several unnamed individuals against whom there is already a perception of wrongdoings Mr Rafiq has been proved to have suffered to their satisfaction.

Now they're going to give everyone a fair trial and then hang them (out to dry) The ECB will of course be protecting itself against accusations of inaction.
 
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