ECB hearings

Newby

Well-known member
I believe it was just the sentencing that was shown on TV, not sure what anyone seeks to gain by showing it. Justice being seen to be done I suppose.

I'm not particularly keen on the CDC hearing being shown in public. Some people who are really interested may watch it all and take a balanced view on what those giving testimony have to say. Others, who have already made up their minds, will see guilt where they want to see guilt, and lies where they want to see lies.
 

Karma

Well-known member
I've been hearing and reading all kinds of stuff about Mr. Rafiq and the ECB Hearings. Apparently in the case of the latter, the show trials are unlikely now to proceed on time (28th November) because some of the defendants/witnesses have appealed against the decision to hold the hearings in public. As Mr Rafiq has apparently moved himself and his family out of the country and has said he will not be present if the hearings are in private it could as I thought all descend into farce and possibly come to nought. If it is in public, then some of the defendants and some of the witnesses will be absent. If in private, then Mr. Rafiq who is sole witness to some of the charges will not be there. Adil Rashid is out of the country on England duty and is unlikely to make a personal appearance but maybe by Zoom?

That apart Mr Rafiq's name came up in Morton's High Court action against YCCC and Prof. the Lord Patel of Bradford OBE. Apparently Mr. Rafiq was named as being involved in exposing himself to a chambermaid at a hotel in Northampton when Yorkshire were playing there and again 3 months later to a female employee in South Africa(ditto) both in 2012. This is where it gets a bit muddy in that Morton was accused by YCCC's lawyers of not reporting this, but he says he did to Graves and named Rafiq. Apparently dealt with internally with a 'warning'.

I understand these events were alluded to in the letter signed by a number of ex-employees and had also been notified by Morton to Lord P shortly after his arrival at Headingley. The usual claptrap coming out of the Rafiq camp about just another example of trying to blacken his name. Morton has said that his High Court action (for £500,00) is nothing to do with Rafiq but is against YCCC and The Lord Patel of Bradford.

Now where a company or employer hears about charges of racism or sexual misbehaviour against its employees then alarm bells should be ringing loud, those are two areas that must be handled properly and not swept under the carpet.

Personally, and separately I think all the claims and counter claims blur the distinctions between and act as a distraction from two entirely different wrongs, namely racism and wrongful dismissals.

This does not mean that I am belittling sexual misconduct allegations or charges. I understand there were protests about Mr. Rafiq being guest of honour at the Headingley Test this year because of this.

There's so much stuff going round it's becoming hard to keep track of it all accurately. I don't know how much is true or spin or journalism.
 

Newby

Well-known member
I was hoping the ECB were changing with the new top management in place but we seem to be having more of the same, delay and dither.

Some witnesses have objected to having the hearings in public, well that's a totally unforeseen turn of events, I don't think.

I fear nothing is going to give Azeem Rafiq closure whether it be an open or closed hearing, but further delay is stopping the rest of us, especially those being charged, moving on.
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
What a mess! I can understand those so charged not wanting their every move and word on the WWW if that is what open means as opposed to the public and press being allowed in, especially as AzR's team are wealthy, experienced and have mostly 'owned the narrative'. If the ECB behave like the Parliamentary sub committee then even more concern. Hales and Javid were interviewed behind closed doors so this appears to be one rule for one and another for the rest....

AzR is now rumoured to have left the country for his family's safety which could, of course, be a ruse to continue to 'own the narrative', especially leading up to any enquiry.
 

Karma

Well-known member
What a mess! I can understand those so charged not wanting their every move and word on the WWW if that is what open means as opposed to the public and press being allowed in, especially as AzR's team are wealthy, experienced and have mostly 'owned the narrative'. If the ECB behave like the Parliamentary sub committee then even more concern. Hales and Javid were interviewed behind closed doors so this appears to be one rule for one and another for the rest....

AzR is now rumoured to have left the country for his family's safety which could, of course, be a ruse to continue to 'own the narrative', especially leading up to any enquiry.
STOP PRESS:

Hearings put back by ECB until 2023

This is true. And in the meantime they're looking for more long grass.
 

Donnylad

Well-known member
... oh you can hear the shoots of spring grass climbing to unprecedented heights.

Now who would be likely to want to appeal against the hearings being in public????
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
STOP PRESS:

Hearings put back by ECB until 2023

This is true. And in the meantime they're looking for more long grass.
The reports say some of the 'defendants', not MV, don't agree with an open investigation as it is changing usual practice. MV, as a media savvy person, might feel confident in this situation, more so than the others. MHg apparently is very surprised and disappointed that that Az R first said he only wanted an apology for a comment made, 'Raffa the Kaffa' or something, and now he wants an internet hearing.... I had to look up Kafir and it is either a negative description of a Black South African or slang amongst Asians for a non-Muslim, and I believe Muslims in this country use this term to describe Whites. Well I am not convinced MH knew this but liked the rhyme. I once heard it used in Bradford and had to ask.

As some of the 'accused' are appealing to have their case heard privately as has always been the case, then the investigation is delayed whilst the appeals are heard.
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
The alleged MV comment "too many of you lot or something" he denies saying despite 3 apparent witnesses. He would have been better saying I have no recollection of that and it does not subscribe to my views. I can imagine him making a daft, laddish off the cuff 'joke' that he has forgotten. It would be irony on his part as he was the first outsider in over half a century.
Look there is racism here there and everywhere in the world but these 2 'examples' are spurious, tenuous to say the least. Are there not more important matters?
There may be more to this case, and Ismail Dawood has said things that are more concerning, but so far Az R's claims seem relatively minor to say the least.
And the other known example is the pathetic, juvenile baiting between two former friends who seemed to want to dare each other to say worse things and stretch and break boundaries of normal discourse.
 

Karma

Well-known member
What a mess! I can understand those so charged not wanting their every move and word on the WWW if that is what open means as opposed to the public and press being allowed in, especially as AzR's team are wealthy, experienced and have mostly 'owned the narrative'. If the ECB behave like the Parliamentary sub committee then even more concern. Hales and Javid were interviewed behind closed doors so this appears to be one rule for one and another for the rest....

AzR is now rumoured to have left the country for his family's safety which could, of course, be a ruse to continue to 'own the narrative', especially leading up to any enquiry.
Indeed, what a mess.

I'm still of the opinion this is going to end with a whimper rather than a bang.
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
The latest jockeying for position by Az R's camp is under an article with the heading 'It's unquantifiable what I have lost', probably written with GD. I cannot possibly bring myself to read it but it is possible he lost his recognition of self-responsibility for his own shortcomings.
We may find out more. We may not. We may alter our viewpoints. We may not.......
 

Karma

Well-known member
The latest jockeying for position by Az R's camp is under an article with the heading 'It's unquantifiable what I have lost', probably written with GD. I cannot possibly bring myself to read it but it is possible he lost his recognition of self-responsibility for his own shortcomings.
We may find out more. We may not. We may alter our viewpoints. We may not.......
I think Mr. Rafiq has lost an awful lot including:

1)A first class cricket career.
He lost form with Yorkshire left twice and could not get a first class contract with any other county when living in South Yorkshire. Can't understand that for someone so young and a firmer U19 captain etc

2) He lost a child.
He's not the first and you cannot quantify how somebody in that position feels though he was critical of YCCC management being 'insensitive'

3) He lost £000's by gambling it away.
We don't know how many thousands and over what sort of timescale but the PCA paid off many thousands for him. ( before declining to fund his legal team in bringing charges against YCCC as it would denude their available funds

I'm sure he lost other things, business ventures. 'Respect' from fellow professionals regarding things like the 'exposure' events in 2012, but it might be that all his losses became subsumed into his charges about the racism he felt and suffered, something that he could focus upon as clearly it was not his fault, he was the victim.

I'm not saying he was not subject to racism.
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
I think Mr. Rafiq has lost an awful lot including:

1)A first class cricket career.
He lost form with Yorkshire left twice and could not get a first class contract with any other county when living in South Yorkshire. Can't understand that for someone so young and a firmer U19 captain etc

2) He lost a child.
He's not the first and you cannot quantify how somebody in that position feels though he was critical of YCCC management being 'insensitive'

3) He lost £000's by gambling it away.
We don't know how many thousands and over what sort of timescale but the PCA paid off many thousands for him. ( before declining to fund his legal team in bringing charges against YCCC as it would denude their available funds

I'm sure he lost other things, business ventures. 'Respect' from fellow professionals regarding things like the 'exposure' events in 2012, but it might be that all his losses became subsumed into his charges about the racism he felt and suffered, something that he could focus upon as clearly it was not his fault, he was the victim.

I'm not saying he was not subject to racism.
well put
 

byased

Active member
Could this all just fizzle out? The delays have reduced the impact, and I suspect the public interest is now very low. Not sure how it will all be pulled together into something cohesive that attempts to right all the "wrongs".
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think Az R's camp will let it fizzle out. He now has a book coming out 'It's Not Banter, It's Racism'. Doubtless written with GD. Snappy title like, 'Make America Great Again' and 'Let's Take Back Control'.
 

Karma

Well-known member
I made the mistake this summer, when it was announced that AR had formed a company and when I made up a bad joke. I will repeat the substance which is that the company was constituted to make it easier to deal with him writing a book, adding that waterstones were already clearing their fiction shelves to make space for his weighty tome. I realise that it's not funny as he has been subject to racism

However perhaps the title should be 'It's not banter, it's antisemitic'
 

Hawke

Administrator
Staff member
I made the mistake this summer, when it was announced that AR had formed a company and when I made up a bad joke. I will repeat the substance which is that the company was constituted to make it easier to deal with him writing a book, adding that waterstones were already clearing their fiction shelves to make space for his weighty tome. I realise that it's not funny as he has been subject to racism

However perhaps the title should be 'It's not banter, it's antisemitic'
But has AzR been subject to racism? Do we know for sure? He might. But at the moment it might be a case of say that as often and confidently as you can and it becomes accepted without necessarily being true.
Same as Johnson got Brexit done. Yes we have left but the process of re-building will go on until.........we have the nerve or problems to force us into a closer deal..... So Brexit is not done.
Say something as often as you can and as confidently and it become accepted. say something..... say something.....
yes he might have been ??????????
 

tbsteve

Active member
Thanks Hawke - I think that is missing from the debate.

I'll be clear, I don't believe he was subject to racism. I don't think you can look back on something 5 years later and reinterpret it - especially not when all the evidence points towards him being an active participant in the banter. The ability of people to retrospectively interpret events is crazy. Look at the video celebration of him at Scarbados for an example - alcohol at the time wasn't an issue for him. It's ridiculous to decide it was 5 years afterwards.
 

Karma

Well-known member
But has AzR been subject to racism? Do we know for sure? He might. But at the moment it might be a case of say that as often and confidently as you can and it becomes accepted without necessarily being true.
Same as Johnson got Brexit done. Yes we have left but the process of re-building will go on until.........we have the nerve or problems to force us into a closer deal..... So Brexit is not done.
Say something as often as you can and as confidently and it become accepted. say something..... say something.....
yes he might have been ??????????

Again good points, very well made.

Of course being a 'person of colour' I'm pretty sure that he has been subject to prejudice throughout his life. As to how much of that has been based around cricket and specifically cricket at YCCC, well the jury is still out.

I think most people will have been subject to prejudice throughout their schooling, work and social life. Sometimes it's obvious sometimes subtle. Most of us just shrug and get on with life.

In the case of Mr Rafiq, I think he's a gifted but flawed individual, most of his problems have been of his own making. Racism though (whether real or imagined) is something where he will argue that he has been the victim. And as you imply, Hawke, basically repetition does make it look more believable. Certainly to Azeem Rafiq at least. But not to everyone.

The jury is still out. At least it would be if there was one. Or cross-examination etc etc
 

Newby

Well-known member
I don't believe he was necessarily a victim of racism, except in hindsight in his own mind. That doesn't however mean that racist attitudes, be they casual or malicious, were not part of the culture of YCCC at the time and there will have been some victims.

I would argue though that the culture was probably little different from other clubs, sport in general and quite a large section of society, and that singling YCCC for special punishment is unfair.
 

Karma

Well-known member
Perhaps it was one of the other of life's motivators that was behind Rafiq singling out YCCC. Not punishment.

MONEY.
 
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